INT: It's interesting to me that you and your brother ended up on top of the film directing and still photography tree. Where did this visual streak come from?
AP: I can't even begin to figure it out. We didn’t grow up together. My parents were divorced, he was five years older. Then there was a long period about, 8 or 9, where I was sent off to live with other people because he was not well. Divorce was relatively unheard of, my mother was working hard at the hospital, couldn't take care of us. We were in New York, at that point. I was sent off to live in New Hampshire, ostensibly a camp, turned out to be a summer camp that stretched into winter and summer. The people who ran it were missionaries. They had been to Spain and had been preaching the gospel to Spanish Catholics, benefits of Protestantism. I was being introduced to the idea of prayer, no ability to begin to believe. That went on for the summer, in a little one room school house in a small town in New Hampshire. There was a handy man and me in the winter, not in the main house.

INT: And they weren't running movies for you, so when did you first become into movies?
AP: I was never really. I was traumatized at a horror film as a kid, I had no interest in film. That endured for quite a long time with notable exceptions. I saw CITIZEN KANE, I was overwhelmed, a few such films, but I wasn't a frequent filmgoer. The theater interested me more, I had no theatrical ambitions through my adolescence, it wasn't 'til high school that I got pressed into a stage school 'til I had the first inkling of my interest. My brother in the meantime had started photography young, given it up, gone off to Philadelphia to live with father. He got a scholarship to the SCHOOL OF INDUSTRIAL ART where the art director of HARPER'S BAZAAR, ALEXEI BROVOVICH, a fine man with an extraordinary eye offered him a job straight off the bat. [INT: Really, through your adolescence you had little contact?] Until I was moved to Philadelphia for high school, then we became friends.

INT: I know you started off in a big way in television, true of American and British directors in the '50s, that was really our film school. What took you into television?
AP: It's peculiar. I was in the army during the war. When the war ended I was in Germany and then I got a pass into Paris. And I was in Paris and I met a guy who I had known at Fort Jackson who was a theatrical agent, Lester Scherrer. He in the meantime had served in the armored division, I was in infantry. Our only connection was when we were stationed in Fort Jackson in South Carolina, when you got a three day pass there was nothing to do except a community theater. We drifted there, we met a man named FRED COE who was running it. I met Lester on the Champs de Elysee. They were forming a soldier company to do shows for the incoming army of occupation to keep them from fraternizing with the frauleins. So I said yes, and I went back to Germany and there were orders to report back to Paris. I turned around, went back to Paris. I hadn't had any real theatrical experience. There I was, they were doing a production of GOLDEN BOY directed by JOE PEVNEY who had been right on the fringe, is still alive and still in the DGA. I got the job as a stage manager. At that point in the events the war in Europe had ended but the war in Japan had not yet ended. There wasn't a real demobilization program. Suddenly, the war in Japan ended like that, as we know. Congress hit all of Europe with a number of points, and everybody left. They came to me, I don't know what prompted this. They asked me if I would take my discharge in Europe and be in charge of this program as a civilian. I said hell yes because I was then going to earn $7,000 a year. So I went into Heidelburg a corporal and came back a civilian in charge of the program. So that's what got me into television. When I came back I heard NBC was hiring floor managers, they were impressed with my credentials, I'd figured out what I thought about acting, sort of. Then got the job as a floor manager, got assigned to THE COLGATE COMEDY HOUR, sent to LA because they were about to open coaxial cable. There I was in happy LA.

INT: Starting as a stage manager, did you act at all?
AP: No. [INT: Have you ever acted?] No, I'm a terrible actor. [INT: When did you think you wanted to direct?] About that time. Prior to that I thought of myself as a writer. I skipped a large block, but there were four years of G.I. bill in college, two in America and two in Italy. I was reading Renaissance Italian poetry. [INT: Before or after LA?] Before I came back. I got the job at NBC after that. I had been writing, one of the things was a lousy play. While I was doing THE COMEDY HOUR there were times in between so I directed a play out there with PETER GRAVES. It was terrible but it was alright. [INT: Sounds to me like you came into plays and films through language rather than images?] Yeah, although I had an education in images with my brother and his then girlfriend later wife who were very kind and showed me stuff. Until then I never had.

INT: How did you get your first break directing, did you fight for it?
AP: No I moved up to associate director in the booth with the director. I was calling the ready shot the next shot. He had a bad hemorrhage on the air and I sort of finished the show because he had to be taken off in the ambulance. He was bleeding internally. I did that and at that point MARTIN and LEWIS said they would like me to direct their show next year. EDDY CANTOR who was another regular came to me and said he wanted me to direct his show. That meant I would be rich when I get a call from FRED COE in New York, doing PLAYHOUSE with wonderful writers, asked me to come east in an experimental show. I said I would be there tomorrow. I went back to New York. I was directing right off the bat, pathetically because the actual responsibility, I walked into the first rehearsal. It was a script by PADDY CHAYEFSKY with KIM HUNTER, MILLY NATWICK, and a good actor and director. I said to them I don't know diddly how to talk with people. I did some studying with MICHAEL CHEKHOV. I was reluctant to put it into the works just yet. I said to JOE, “You direct the actors, I'll do the cameras.” That is how I was through the first 2 or 3 shows. I had a show with KIM STANLEY, she was so generous I had courage. I began to venture some opinions. FRED COE went to her, she apparently said I was alright, he came to me and said he was going to increase the director's company from two to three; DEL MANN and VINCENT DONOHUE. The other extraordinary thing was all Broadway shows were dark on Sundays, we got good actors desperate for something else. We had a pick of everybody. I learned from the actors.

INT: Would you say you had particular mentors, would FRED give you advice?
AP: He wouldn’t tell you what to do, he would give you an opinion about what was happening. He was a great and wonderful southerner from Mississippi. We became dear friends to the end of his life. Went on to the theatre. [INT: Did he direct himself?] Yes, started in television, went to producing, then directed A THOUSAND CLOWNS.

INT: All through that time in television, six years before PLAYHOUSE 90, do you think the best thing was the relationship with writers you developed or the actors?
AP: Both. [INT: Did you have time to work on scripts with the writer?] Yes. Writers in that period were wonderfully receptive. If they were persuaded by me or by the actors, they were perfectly willing to respond to that. This was before commercial television took hold.

INT: Do you think, looking back, that there was something more cooperative about TV than film?
AP: Totally. We were all very much a sort of family. Everybody watched everybody else, was enthusiastic. When an opinion was sought it was given with candor and generosity. Casting was great. That went on constantly, a lively lovely atmosphere.

INT: And did you start going to theater looking for actors?
AP: I did yes, that was a period when television was an extension of the theater. All the shows were out of New York, they were the actors who were here. The western migration hadn't begun.

INT: Let me take you forward towards film, that background, most of the British directors come out of commercial and TV. It was a great period. Was there a stage where you became dissatisfied with the multi-camera format or the audience you were playing for, that made you want to go to film?
AP: It wasn't really a strong desire of mine. After this period of almost amateur television, it became commercially much stronger. Then CBS did a 90 minute PLAYHOUSE 90. The appetite for material was voracious. MARTIN MANULIS in addition to asking the New York directors to come out and direct, he would ask if we had any material. Just at that time, WILLIAM GIBSON, a playwright was trying to finish TWO FOR THE SEESAW but was broke. I said tell me what you've written. He said he once wrote a dance narrative for ANNIE SULLIVAN and HELEN KELLER. I said, “Let's sketch this out.” I said I would get you 500 dollars. Couldn't get NBC or CBS to buy it. I sent it to PLAYHOUSE, he said 10,000 on the way. Did it on PLAYHOUSE 90. Did it on TV, stage, and film.

AP: During that period I had agreed to do four episodes. FRED COE said he wanted to do a film on BILLY THE KID written by GORE VIDAL. I said fine. I told MARTIN I would do four PLAYHOUSE 90s. By the time I left there was still no tape. Just as a left tape came in. I hadn't had that experience of the deposited image that came into being. LESLIE STEVENS was a playwright I worked with, because GORE VIDAL was not available. We wrote a different script. We had PAUL NEWMAN but wrote a variation of LEFT HANDED GUN. Now this is a sort of foolish period. Confronted with a 23 day schedule, well all over WB lot, BILLY WILDER was making SPIRIT OF ST. LOUIS, ZINNEMANN's OLD MAN AND THE SEA. We were this puny movie, everybody warned me we had to stay on schedule. What I did was I picked out the location, then Dixie Cups used to come flat. I went around and nailed them into the ground with the lens. Little did I know this was an offense of the first magnitude. The cinematographer was furious. Then I said I want a second camera over here. He said he didn't do it. I never thought I would get it covered. That was the first time I saw a slate come out with "under protest." Dailies would go upstairs to JACK WARNER first.

AP: When I finished shooting a man came up to me and said, “Hello, I am BLANGSTED, I'm most famous creative editor in Hollywood. I am going to edit your movie.” It never occurred to me. The next day I was off the lot. No idea I wouldn't be in on it. No foreknowledge that so many of the biggest directors, JOHN FORD, were used to this and accepted it. Fortunately I shot very little because I had no opportunity to cover shots, so they used a lot of the second camera footage which was exactly the footage I wanted. I never saw it again until – [INT: It must have been the oddest thing to see it, was it a major shock?] It was a lesser shock. There was so little footage, the rhythms were different than I would have liked. I was pretty good except the WARNERS hated it and it was on the bottom half of a double bill. [INT: That was a blood thirsty beginning?] I thought this isn't a medium for me, This is nuts.

INT: How long was it 'til MIRACLE WORKER, was that the next one you did?
AP: Yeah, what happened was BILL GIBSON got the ten thousand dollars and finished TWO FOR THE SEESAW. FRED COE couldn’t get a producer, nobody wanted to do a two character play. I said I know the guy, the agent kept saying we would go to other producers. Finally I said, “Let me give it to FRED COE.” I give it to him, he read it and said, “You're on.” That's it. He wired HENRY FONDA that the script was on his way, read it and said I was yours. He was then the biggest star in theater after MISTER ROBERTS. There we were with a big star and no lady. We had a hard time finding her. With good fortune it was ANNE BANCROFT. Did a play and she became a star over night. Big hit. While we were on the road, BILL GIBSON had become enchanted. He had never been around these heavy weight actors, became enchanted by ANNE and said to me, “I think I'm going to turn MIRACLE WORKER into a play for BANCROFT.” How do you do a play about a deaf blind kid? Then came SEESAW, not very long after that there was a manuscript for MIRACLE WORKER. Waited for her to play out her contract, LEE GRANT took over, DANE CLARK replaced HANK, that play went on then we got MIRACLE WORKER ready.

AP: Now what happened... These are all oft told tales. While SEESAW was running, RAY STARK came in and bought it. Said he didn't want any of you. Wanted IZABELLE LEONARD to write the screenplay, SHIRLEY MACLAINE would play the girl, ROBERT MITCHUM is going to be the guy, BOB WISE is going to direct. In those days it was still possible for a movie to go into production before the play had closed. So the play was running, they started production. Then STARK called and said we are having difficulty finding the jokes. Offered to come and buy out a performance if we let him photograph it. No way. There were jokes but they were behavioral. They were out of human emotion. They made the film and it was deadly. Actually made it and it sank. At that point we went off an did THE MIRACLE WORKER, only this time when UA wanted to buy it, we all said to each other, “let's stick together.” UA was furious, they had either ELZABETH TAYLOR or AUDREY HEPBURN. We kept saying no. final cut and all that. Finally succeeded. Two girls won the OSCAR.

AP: The picture was nominated. I'll tell you a story about the cinematographer, this is typical of what happens in movies. ERNIE CAPARROS, a good Cuban DP. He was going along, we were shooting way out of sequence. About the second or third week we did the end scene at the pump where finally HELEN puts the thing together. Well, the crew was standing around them, all these hardies with tears down their faces. CAPARROS was moved. Suddenly we started to slow down in the schedule. He said he had to light the shadows. Thought it was going to be a great work. I told him to push it along, but he got nominated; I did too.

INT: Were you finding by this time it was a better experience?
AP: Different positively and negatively. Negatively, having done it on television and more significantly on stage, and so language dependent on the stage with adversarial positions and ANNIE saying I will not live with that. When I came to make the film I didn't respect the camera enough. I did some, but then I was more faithful to the script and the theater background. When I see the film now I wish I had shut some of the actors up and let the cameras speak. I was shaken by the fact that I had not understood the potency of an image. It was a terrific lesson.

INT: Were you looking at other people's movies at this time?
AP: I don’t know about influence, but I was taken by when I had been in Italy and the Italian Neorealists, DE SICA and BICYCLE THIEF had taken me apart emotionally. [INT: I have read about French influence in you but I always thought there was more realist in you.] That was what I loved, yeah. But French cinema, I was very taken with it. It was more of an entertainment, breaking rules. JULES AND JIM was lovely but with the ROSSELINI films they blew me away. I was shaken. Those films had the biggest impact.

INT: Moving on tentatively, I know you came to THE CHASE next. I'd like to go on record as saying I hadn't seen it and I thought it was pretty good. I don’t know what they did when they got their hands on it or if you can stand it, but I thought it was good.
AP: It's a good movie. It should be better for two reasons. MARLON BRANDO's improvisations were wonderful; it was odd and veered away from SAM's view of how things in the picture should be. [INT: Subdued and subtle performance, not heroic] No, he was playing a man who failed. That is what took us through the ride. There were wonderful actors [INT: JANICE RULE] and BOB REDFORD. [INT: DUVALL] JANET RULE. JANE FONDA. [INT: I think there are some marvelous set pieces. On the whole did they, I felt in a way they had let it go to long rather than butchering it?] Exactly, that takes me to the same thing before, which is rhythm. We each have our own sense. Though I shoot a scene, when you deposit it in its proper place you recognize that you can't be like that. That's what drove me crazy. It had a certain flaccid aspect. That drives me nuts. That's the one thing those of us who come out of theater know, you have the eleven o' clock number. You're heading to something with an accelerating rhythm, and if you don't, it is deadly.

INT: Don’t you think that is unpredictable 'til you're in the cutting room?
AP: Absolutely. [INT: A scene you were sure with the tempo has to go different?] Totally. That’s why I now counsel the directors to cover. The rhythm when you put it in its place is going to be so different, by then there is an accumulation of something that is mysterious, almost gives me concern for the fact of the AVID and swiftness of the editing. There needs to be brooding, an effusion that emerges from the film that says this is the way I want to go. That was a pleasure I found in film. I found no other place, certainly not now. [INT: I think the great thing is you have three or four chances to get it right.]

INT: Let me take you back to the beginning, going to script. What are you looking for when reading? Is it story element?
AP: Story predominantly. [INT: What's a good story?] A story that drives towards its own end. Has the seeds of its own resolution or destruction. There are some films where the narrative diminishes in a typical way. ALICE'S RESTAURANT. We'll talk about that.

INT: You obviously get involved in preparing the scripts. How many have you been in on since the beginning? I know that THE CHASE and BONNIE AND CLYDE you did a lot of work with scripts there, later ones did you make from scratch?
AP: BONNIE AND CLYDE, the script was there, THE CHASE was LILLIAN HELLMAN's first, she failed to be able to conclude it. HORTON, the writer, came in, SAM SPIEGEL I think had a fine hand. Every once in awhile someone would come down to the set and the scene wouldn't work. We were in the midst of one of those experiences that belongs to Hollywood. SPIEGEL left a sort of pariah. Borrowed a lot of money, went abroad, made some extraordinary films. AFRICAN QUEEN. Hooked up with DAVID LEAN, LAWRENCE OF ARABIA, RIVER KWAI. This was his triumphant return to Hollywood. There were many aspects that required something. BRANDO said to me "Do you know who your psychological jester was on this picture?" There were several scripts, extraordinary cast. I felt desperate to be of used to, I was being overwhelmed. [INT: That sounds like the key bad way to work on a script.]

INT: When you moved on from there, working on the BONNIE AND CLYDE script, did you work closely with ROBERT BENTON?
AP: Yes, I hadn't worked with him before that, but I knew him. We were quite friendly. BC was, as I say, a very good script to begin with. One aspect I felt was a little to complicated which was the triangular ménage à trois. [INT: Were the guys overtly gay?] No it was there by implication, not there explicitly. Maybe a streak of historical truth. The source material suggested that. I thought if we do something like that we are going to do something so sophisticated sexually that the whole social economic substructure that is really the motivating force of this film will be obscured. I talked with them and they were very understanding. Changed it to C.W. Moss. I went far with that and chose MICHAEL POLLARD. [INT: Clown follower] A mascot. He would have to betray them. If it had been somebody who had been sexually involved who betrayed them it would have left all kinds of dire resolutions.

INT: Now, keeping on scripts, other films like LITTLE BIG MAN and NIGHT MOVES, how do you work with a writer, do you do a full draft and go through it in detail?
AP: In some cases I sat with them. LESLIE STEVENS and I wrote LEFT HANDED GUN together. LITTLE BIG MAN, I worked with another writer who was good, but it wasn't going well, it wasn't LITTLE BIG MAN but we were doing some other film. I said to the secretary, “Could you get me this book?” She said “TOM BERGER is a great friend of mine.” We acquired the book. STUART, the co-producer, and I went to CALDER WILLINGHAM. He said, “Why did you stick me with this god damn book?” Off he went, he wrote a pretty good script. Lived in New Hampshire, I was in Massachusetts in the meantime. I ran into DUNAWAY, she said, “I wanted to be in the next movie.” Told that to CALDER. He said, “Let's combine them.” That's how we got FAYE into the picture. It was demanding physically, didn't get a lot of breaks. We shot Custer's charge for three or four days, in Calgary, Canada. Then they had the shinook, a hot wind that came in and melted the snow. We tried to make snow but it was too warm. We were in shirt sleeves in December. Locals know of these occurrences but we had to shut down for a month. Fortunately the crew got work and weren't on the pay role. Then we resumed in January. It was an arduously demanding picture. I don't think I've ever been that cold. Made the battle of the bulge feel like Florida.

INT: Do you try to sign off on a script before you start shooting?
AP: No, by sign off do you mean this is it? [INT: Yes] No. Then the actors do make a terrific contribution. That doesn’t mean be frivolous, but I do think there is a body of information that only an actor can provide.

INT: Do you think it is useful or do you like to have a writer on the set?
AP: Yes. [INT: Do you have a problem with writers on the set?] No, the thing is writers I invite never show up. They were always off doing something else. As is true for all of us. As you know, directors never see each other. It's only in the theater that you run into each other. [INT: So basically adjustments are between you and actor?] I'll call the writer if I think it is a major change.